Investigation of a round brick lined Blue Water Pool at Torwood near Dunipace and Larbert
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Guestbook
166 thoughts on the investigation
Nigel Turnbull
Note to Heather from Canada. Thanks for the info and photos. My digital camera records date and time in the ‘file info’. Your photographs of the pool were taken on 20 April 2007. That was just
five days after I took my photos of the pool. It’s a small world is it
not ?
Ian & Agnes Bowie
Could this man made structure not be a remnant of the now closed company “Torwood Brick and Fireclay Ltd”
We remember arranging insurance for a company in Denny (can’t
remember the name} but their job was to reclaim the linings of kilns
from old works. Could it have been the case that there was a structure
above the ground and it was only removed to ground level?
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for the input Agnes. The only reference I can find to the Torwood Brick and Fireclay Co. is a site owned by Bonnybridge Silica & Fireclay Co. http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/140166/details/carbrook+clay+mine/ (Carbrook Clay Mine — alternate name, Torwood Mine) and located, I
think, north of Torwood and quite some distance from the Blue Pool. It
closed in 1982, which may have tied up with the time you refer to.
The only thing l can say for sure is the pool doesn’t just fill
up with rain water and then evaporate to change levels. l have been up
one day and the level has been about 4 feet (1m) from the top. However,
the very next day it was full to the brim. There was no rainfall through
the night and even if there had been it would never have been that
much! The same thing has happened the other way round (full one day – 1m
below the next)
Nigel Turnbull
An interesting and important observation Eileen. I have inserted it into the main text and added a few deductions.
Sandie
I just wanted to say how interesting reading all about the blue
pool has been, I came across this site quite by accident, whilst looking
for info on how to clear green water from an above ground splash pool. I
would have loved to have swam in your blue pool when it was an aqua
marine colour as some one stated it was. I would love to find out if you
ever did really find out its origins. good luck
Nigel Turnbull
Dear Sandy from Suffolk, Glad you enjoyed your read. We have not yet discovered the secrets of
the Blue Pool but the investigation is very much ongoing as time and
weather permit. I happened to be in nearby Fallin yesterday and handed out a few
leaflets. The people were very interested but nobody had any immediate
useful input.
David McLagan
I first saw the pool around 1985 and my generation from Denny
referred to it as the Witches Pool. It was a magnificent vivid blue
colour. I remember that a fairly established tree line was a matter of
metres from the pool but not up close as it is today. My brother has
swum in it. I last saw the pool around 2005 and it looks more blue in the winter
than in the summer. I tended to only go there on good days so the blue
sky may have been a factor. One winter I remember seeing leaves on the
bottom and they looked like silver.
Stuart
Walked to this pool in the summer on the way to the Broch. On the
assumption that it’s probably not a unique structure, you would tend to
look elsewhere for something similar? Having had a scout around it
looks like a early-mid or late 1800′s cesspit which would be consistent
with the height of the pipe and the story of the old beehive roof. Given
the Carron ironworks was the largest smelting works in europe from
1800′s onward, employing over 1000 people this might make sense as they
owned the land and would not have had modern drainage to start with.
If you do a search for archeological cesspit design (not that I make a
habit of it) you can find similar types of builds, the link below is a
smaller build but could indicate it’s the same type of construction.
Have you had the sediment at the bottom tested for traces of sewage? (until you do, I wouldnt swim in it )
Very interesting though, good luck.
Brgds Stuart
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for taking the time to do that Stuart. I am sure there are
people who have swum in the Blue Pool and now are reading this while
scratching themselves raw. Although Carron Company owned Torwood, they were only interested in the
minerals underground. There are no houses shown in the area of the pool
on any old Ordnance Survey Maps. Carron Iron Works was 3 miles away and I
am sure the workers would have lived near the works. The nearest dwellings to the pool (new map further up page) were Torwood
Castle, Denovan House, Doghillock, Kirkland and Todhill. All of these
buildings are at least half a mile from the pool but more importantly
the pool is at a higher elevation than any of the buildings and you
would need a lot of Brussels Sprouts in your diet to force your effluent
up that pipe. I hope this stops everyone scratching themselves. Keep
the ideas coming — it’s far from a one-horse race. Nigel
Eileen Livingston
l can cleary remember the wooden plank you found. Back in the mid
eighties l can remember the fun we had holding it vertically and then
pushing it down so we could then see it shoot back up in the air from
the top of the pool. (oh how easy it was to amuse youngsters back then
compared to now!)Though l’m certain they were at least 2 planks, maybe
as many as 3. Maybe they are stuck somewhere below too.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Eileen. Did the plank have a taper on it that you remember? The other planks were probably taken away by someone who needed planks for a building project. The taper on the remaining plank has me wondering — can’t imagine anyone
passing an afternoon whittling a 10×2 plank over a 6 foot length. I have been told there was a fire in the area at some point. I wonder if
the plank was partially sticking out of the water and was burned away
most at the point furthest from the water. I dare say the Fire Department might have a record of the fire. It might
be worth contacting them in case they have any worthwhile knowledge of
the pool — other than it being an available emergency water supply and
fire fighting asset.
Frances Annette Hixenbaugh
Nigel:
I loved the video and all the actor’s comments. I was in Scotland in
1995 for a family reunion, and am sorry we didn’t get to spend more time
at Torwood Castle. Mr. Gordon Millar was living then, and working night
and day on Torwood’s restoration.
Your little film makes me homesick to see the Castle and explore the Torwood. Thank you so much for your efforts.
when i was a child i used to walk my dog with my friend and my
father in fact the dog swam in it on many occasions.’ according to my
father this had been a air vent for an old mine working hope this helps
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that J.E. The air shaft theory is a popular one. I must confess my Water Tank theory is looking less likely.
natalie Cooper
My boyfriend is from banknock and remebers going for a walk when
he was a wee lad(about 30 years ago) with his dad to torwood castle. He
also remembers seeing a ‘well’ which i assume is the blue pool. his
memory of it when he looked in the pool there seemed to be small brick
archways in the pool with tunnels leading away from it. I can see from
the pictures that sediment has formed and the botom is no longer
visible. His father was told that the pool is fed by a natural spring
and it was mentioned it was a source of water for a nearby hospital.
just another take on the discussions. He also mentioned a nearby cave known as ‘wallaces cave’. he recommends a
visit as its still a vivid childhood experience for him. i recently
went to torwood castle and was very impressed by the beautiful building
but have yet to see the pool.
Nigel Turnbull
Dear Natalie, Thanks for your input. You are obviously aware that we found and photographed (part of) the predicted brick arch. My ears fair ******* up when you used the plurals archway(s) and tunnel(s) — that’s a first for this investigation. There’s a lot of rising water breaks the surface in the Torwood area.
The old maps show several ‘Rises’ and one ‘Spring’. If the Blue Pool is
connected to old mine workings, it could be that the workings are now
flooded. Wallace never visited the cave that takes his name. I too remember it
from my youth. It is actually a very old mine working and definitely an
unsafe place to be going anywhere near these days. The opening is in a
crumbling rock face and large chunks have fallen off fairly recently. Best just to visit Wallace’s Monument
mmm I see the over exuberant auto-censor has changed my perfectly
innocent word, describing the action of my ears, into something
sinister.
Rob Lowe
Hi,
I was just skimming your blue pool website. I noticed you refer to
springs and uprising sources of water. I’m VERY interested in this, we
are currently trying to convince the govt to object to coal Sean gas
drilling under torwood, Larbert and plean. One major concern is gas
escape via old workings and contamination of the water table. An upward
flow of water could indicate a significant subterranean feature. Could
you please tell me more….
Regards,
Rob
adminPost author
Hello,
It’s with regret that Nigel, who collated this information, passed
away last year. The information has been migrated here to ensure it is
kept in the public domain and that further updates can be continued.
Regards
cameron
If it was a flooded mine airshaft wouldn’t the water be polluted/toxic? Your analysis of the water sample was clear… Great site – absolutely fascinating work. Thanks.
Eric Flack
If it was to do with mining the iron content of the water would
be much higher. I suggest a water supply of some sort.The bricks would
suggest a late 19th century period.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Eric — I note your observation on the iron content but I
don’t have the expertise to comment. There was a fair bit of Ironstone
mining around Dunipace. When the seams were exhausted, the same pits
concentrated on the coal strata. I agree with your proposed date.
Thanks Cameron — I think it would depend on the particular mine and
strata. In the nearby town of Falkirk, some of the earliest piped water
supplies were drawn from redundant mines. It was an offence to source
water from a working mine, though this did occasionally happen with
unfortunate results.
Regards, Nigel
alan
Hi there Nigel I lived in torwood for 20 years ,my mum still lives there and I go visit her all the time. I remember the blue pool when I was a liitle lad and the water level was
always crystal clear and the level varied from time to time when we
went up to look. We would walk the path to denoven quite regular and always look at the
blue pool just because we had never seen anything like it anywhere
before. I remember the planks across the pool, there were a few and some were at
the bottom. The water has always been crystal clear every time I seen
it but we never really knew what its purpose was for, the arch has
always been a mystery to me as well so I was quite excited when I found
your page and the other peoples comments. The first time I seen the blue pool would have been around 1979 and as I still live local I stil go up from time to time .
David Hunter
Great reading about the “Blue pool”. I used to swim in this pool
as a kid (30+ yrs ago), and we all new it as “The Blue Water”. I was
told about this site only today ( thanks Jane) and thought I would have a
look as I have only recently started walking back int this area over
the past few months. The thing I remeber about the “Blue “Water” was
that if you throw a small stick into the pool it would immediately sink
to the bottom, I tried this out again just last week and the same thing
happened. The earlier post that states that this was a sewage stank does
make me shiver at the thought of swimming in there however that would
probably explain my rapid receeding hairline
Was up at the “Blue Water” earlier this evening and again threw in a
stick, guess what? it floated, tried it again and again and it kept
floating , so I guess that makes a nonsense of my earlier post. One good
thing, the water was very clear which made it quite easy to see the
arch.
David Hunter
Hi Nigel, as discussed when we bumped into each other last week
up at the pool. The local man is Davy McArtney, worked at Todd Hill farm
all his days and is now in his late 70′s. I spoke to Davy in the passing the other night and he remembers the pool
very well. Davy told me that this used to be used as a water supply for
the surrounding farms. This water supply was for the cattle only as the
farm dwellings had a seperate water supply. The pool serviced many
fields and has many lead pipes leading from it that ran to various
troughs. The pool was covered over over and was in fact a shed, that is where you
will have gotten the slate and the cast pipe from. The only person that
had access to this structure back then was the old game keeper who had a
key to the shed and used to regulate the water to the fields by
adjusting some valves.
I only got a brief run down from Davy as I was in a hurry however he
has said that he will try and give me a detailed sketch of the layout of
the pool and pipe work. I will also get confirmation of the game
keepers name.
Regards
David
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks very much for that David – a very interesting lead indeed. I have removed David McCarney’s (contact) details from this post. Sounds like he was working at Todhill from around 1950. The shed is fascinating and would certainly explain flat slates and half round guttering and planks of wood. The curved metal casting (similar to OG guttering) would not be so easily explained by the above.
It is possible that the Blue Pool had a change of use/purpose during its lifetime. I have several witnesses (including myself) from the early sixties who
remember the Pool looking much the same as today and nobody recalled a
shed so it may have been damaged by storm or dismantled towards the end
of the 1950’s The description would contradict an account I already have (only one
witness) of the pool looking the same in the 1930’s as it does now –
unless it was a short lived shed built at the end of the 30’s I will certainly contact David McCartney at the suggested location but that will be about two weeks away. I will try to get a quick update uploaded to the web page soon.
chic comrie
Hi Nigel i had a talk with my dad and he does not no what the pool was used for i
will still ask around and will mail you when i have found out.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Chic. I found a couple of new pipes today after our meeting on the Denovan path. I will try to get a quick update onto the page.
David Hunter
Hi Nigel, As a child from Torwood my friends and I swam in it every summer,last
swam in it in 1990. We all used to dive in it to see if we could reach
the bottom thankfuly we never found the bottom. As a child I was told
that this was a water supply in case of forrest fire sorry not sure of
the correct term to use hopefuly this will help.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks David. The forest fire water supply has been suggested but
does not seem credible — too expensive — and there were other natural
pools nearby.
David Hunter
2nd May 2010 I David Hunter from Torwood now have the answer to
your question. I have just found a second red brick air vent with square
manhole next to it,this is now giving the correct answer to what the
blue water is. This is perfactly in line with carbrooke clay mines
main,this to to difficult to explain will post photos soon.
The web site you need to go onto is type in carbrooke clay mine
torwood and then click into Scotlands place record page Carbrooke Clay
Mine, you will then see the pictures click onto the one with the pit
entrance and if you follow the picture the second blue water is right at
the bottom.
I can now confirm this is the same diametre as the blue water,also
the same brick there is also slate. Clay is also around the external of
the wall,the square has cast iron pipes!Have no idea what it is seems to
be full of some kind of oil! Both of these have been filled in with
soil, location the old Carbrooke stables.
Just done some more research the Carbrook Clay Mine opened in 1953 so
it really rules out that they were for the mine!So back to square one
the next theory was why are there are two the same size both with a
manhole and one is next to the castle the next one is next to Carbrook
House WHY!!!!! Is there any more? Why is the one we found got oil in the manhole? Also
this one has been filled in with soil and the first one has water in it!
Surely there is someone out there with an answer.
Nigel Turnbull
An amazing find David – well done. How did you ever think to look there? I took some photos tonight but the light was getting low. It certainly has a lot of similarities. It measures 19ft 5ins internal diameter and the Blue Pool is exactly 20ft.
I spoke with your lead, David McCartney on Friday. He is a wealth of
useful local information but he has never seen the Blue Pool. He was
referring to a small brick building maybe a couple of hundred metres NE
of Blue Pool – an interesting snippet just the same.
Keep up the hunt David – you’re doing a great job. I don’t think I have your email on the mailing list.
David Hunter
Hi sorry to keep coming back with theories, looking at the map
you have on here the blue water and the hole that we found today are
ontop of Plean Pit no 4 so dose this mean that they are air shafts. In the square man hole there would appear to be a large cast iron valve
possible separating the water from the air before pumping the air down
the mine,this is difficult to describe you need to have a look! One other theory my wife came up with are they kiln the size ,materials
used in making them all reads to this to be a charcoal kiln!
Nigel Turnbull
Hello again David. I hope to put up a summary in the next week or
two to let everyone know my findings – some of which are not yet
published. There is unfortunately a large fault line that divides the Plean Collieries from the Blue Pool. I was rather taken by the idea of an underground Charcoal Kiln for a
bit, but the brick arch would be the doorway and it is 4 metres under
very wet boggy land. There is no sign of blackening or tar residue on
the brickwork.
Susan Cameron
If you think it’s mining related, perhaps try the Summer Lee
Heritage Museum, Coatbridge for some answers? Do you think it’s a
natural spring or if it was a natural spring would it not flow
constantly? Does anyone on the site know of a diver to go down and have a
look?
Take care Susan & Elaine
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Susan & Elaine. I will keep that facility in mind. Except in very dry spells there is a constant overflow of water over the
top lip of the pool. The flow is on average about the same as a bath
tap running. The area is quite littered by streams, starting presumably
from rising water, so the pool seems to be following the same pattern as
these surrounding Rises (as they are called on the old maps)
alexander gallacher
hi blue pool guy me and my friend mark egan visited the blue pool
today and we think that it could possibly be clay at the bottom of this
pool to create its magnificant blue colour due to the clay Very fine
clay in suspension in the water diffracts light in different ways
producing a spectrum of colour sometimes green sometimes turquoise.do
not quote me on this one but it would possibly explain . blue colour and
colour changes in different seasons…. by the way what happened to the
pices of debris you found around the pool site ?? me and my friend mark
would like to meet up with you at this pool at sumtime to discuss more
in person hope to hear back from you soon….
if anybody else was able to get me and mark some diving gear we will go down for a nosey
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for the Clay Theory Alexander. I won’t rule it out but I
rather favour the idea that water absorbs the longer Red and Green
wavelengths of light, allowing Blue to pass the furthest. The light
travels 2×4=8metres and the crystal clear water takes on a blue hue. Unfortunately the bottom is covered in dark weed that is absorbing most
of the light and the pool currently is more black than blue. Remember to
discount any reflection of the blue sky. We have a diver on possible request but he would be wasting his time at
the moment. As soon as there is any disturbance of the bottom –
especially around the arch – the water clouds over almost instantly. I
need to brush the area clean around the arch before it would be worth
diving – I clean a wee bit every time I am up there and it takes the
water a day or two to go clear again. If you fancy grappling some of those old trees out, be my guest – be
warned they are very slimy and stinking – I have removed one already. If you find a brass plaque with the name of a coal company, please advise me immediately. I tend to arrive at the Blue Pool just when I get a spare hour or two
and it is impossible (at the moment) to predict this in advance. Maybe
in three weeks or thereabouts I will be better able to specify a day and
time to meet you there.
Stephanie Hunter/David Hunter
Hi Nigel I still rekcon it is a kiln! My reasons well there is a
few but after the dome is complete the steel band/iron should be
tightened the walls plastered with a fine clay mortar and the dome
brushed with a clay slurry ti close all cracks and openings.There is a
site on charcaol kilns no 8.1 which shows a perfect picture the door is
underground,we started to dig away that find yesterday and would love to
investagate more. David is sticking with the air shaft theory but me I
believe it is a charcaol kiln!
Hi Nigel spent the day investigeting our find,we have now found a
cast iron pipe directly in line with the man hole same as the Blue water
but the pipe comes out of the brick and then desends vertically!!!!! The only way we are going to find out is for this to be dug out the
answer lies in this one as there is no water in it trying to get the
photos to yourself got some good ones.
Nigel Turnbull
Hi Stephanie/David,
I certainly liked the charcoal kiln idea at one time but having the
arched doorway five metres down in bog-land does not seem very
practical.
I am sure the main clue in the Blue Pool is the brick arch – does it
travel one metre or a thousand metres ? – the latter would have to be a
ventilation shaft and tunnel. Once I get the weed cleared from inside the arch, I hope to get a camera
down and take a look along the arch – hopefully the whole length will
not be choked with weed. I would expect it to slope downwards at a
fairly steep angle if it was a ventilation tunnel.
I am really interested in how your Carbrook project goes so please
keep me informed. I don’t think I have your email yet. I met a local
guy, James, yesterday when I responded to your find. He says his dad has
a print of a painting of Carbrook House. James was adamant (and his dad
insists) that the nearby building was a Coach House and never to be
called Stables – be warned! James seemed to think the land was currently
owned by the people who used to have Jones Sawmill.
Ann Knox
Hi nigel im mark egans girlfriend and alex gallaghers friend. I
have discussed the blue pool with my mum who is originally from denny.
She often took walks around the area especially the Denovan one which
passes the site. She remembers while on this walk resting at the wall of
the blue pool field but never having seen the pool (not suprising as it
can easily be missed!!) Also she was able to dig out an old book about
Denny and Bonnybridge and there is a reference to a round sunken
structure which had a name but ive forgotton it but will post the name
and book title tomorrow i promise. But it sounded interesting and might
help with this mystery
Nigel Turnbull
That sounds great Ann and thanks for that. I would certainly appreciate you sending the name tomorrow – the earlier the better
Alastair Brookes
I remember the pool from around the same time as Heather …. and we spent most of the summer up at the pool! What I always remember was the vivid blue colour … but there was always a
curiosity to the place, there were always planks lying around if fact
we would run a plank directly across the pool to allow us to jump in and
out, from what I recall these planks were similar to what you find on
scaffolding or a joist in a roof.
The water was always ice cold, something tells me that we tried
several times to dive down to exlore the archway but could never get
access!
Will think some more and update if anything else comes to mind!
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Alastair, I have added your email to the mailing list. Although I don’t actually recall the planks myself, there have been
loads of recollections (even before my time in the early 60’s) — maybe
around six planks. I cannot even begin to imagine what they were for. I too remember that whatever time I visited the pool the water was
extremely cold. When I tried the temperature last June (after a warm
spell) the temperature was the same as the air and remarkably warm —
maybe all the algae was heating it up
The arch is still the best clue so far. Whatever reason the pool was
built for, why did it need a big arch ? I clean the arch out a wee bit
every time I am up there — I am overdue a visit. I have built a
Tupperware underwater camera housing but I am very reluctant to test it
Alastair Brookes
Hi Nigel,
Spoke with my dad … he thinks that area was worked on by a colony of Monks … have you heard about this?? different angle!!
stephen purcell
i went swimming it it today LOLCATS!!!!
Nigel Turnbull
Hope you enjoyed your swim Stephen – with all that nicely cleaned
brickwork – How was the temperature? It was certainly a warm day. Did
your swimming disturb any of the silt on the bottom?
Thanks for that Alastair. This is the first mention I have heard of Monks in the area. I will have to open a new file.
sam balfour
yasss pucell :L coming up to it this weekend
Gregor
is it safe to swim in it?
Nigel Turnbull
Nothing in life is safe Gregor, you can choke on a cup of tea. I have lost count of the number of people who say they have swum in the
Blue Water, though the bottom has a lot more debris on it now than ye
olden days. Although I have heard the stories, I have never actually
seen anyone swimming in the Blue Pool and I have never done so myself. Bottom line is that if YOU are not confident, then don’t do it. If the water level is down by two or three feet, it could be very
difficult getting back out of the pool. A Labrador dog discovered this a
few years ago with tragic results. Never swim alone. Always have a friend to show the police where yer body is – it saves time
Bob Murphy
I remember playing up there as a kid. Good to see some detective
and restoration work happening! Though about seeing if a local sub-aqua
club would be interested in taking a look?
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Bob. No sub-aqua efforts as yet. I would like to try and
clear some more weed and debris from the arch so that a person or camera
will have something to see rather than just weed. The water clouds over
as soon as anything is disturbed down there.
Mrs Wummin'
Has anyone thought about the possibility of a link to the local canals.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Mrs.Wummin. First time I have heard canals mentioned —
I’ll start another shelf in the enquiry. I have watched boats going
through lock gates and as I recall, the amount of water needed to refill
the lock would take about 3 or 4 Blue Pool loads.
Craig
I have recently visited the pool and stumbled over your site. Not
sure if it is relevant but when I was a kid, about 20 years ago we used
to play about in the old RSNH particularly around Larbert House and the
Loch. Anyway I remeber one day we were at the front of the house and
walked down to the Loch we crossed the road and jumped the fence and
there was the tops of an arch that looked like it had been eroded away
by rain. There was a big enough gap for us to get our heads in and we
could see that the part of the brick arch we could see was only a tiny
part of a much bigger archway, beyond there was a massive tunnel heading
towards the house, I remember thinking it was so big you could fit a
truck in it. I remember the brick work was similar to the brick work
round the blue pool but not sure if this has anything to do with it. A
few weeks later we went back and the hole had been recovered. I also
remember what we called an ice house bring behind Larbert house, similar
sort of brick work again.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Craig. An amazing observation. I can’t imagine what such a
large arch near the house would have been for — maybe a nuclear shelter
from the cold war . Even if it turns out to have nothing to do with the Blue Water Pool, it
is certainly worth recording for local interest. Ice Houses are fairly
common, in fact it was one suggested possibility for the Blue Water
Pool, early on in the investigation.
Bertie Broomfield
Hi, I think that this is an irrigation well for the plantation
all around the site of the Blue Hole. Its basically a way of keeping a
steady flow of water to feed the trees where the soil doesn’t hold the
water too well. Perhaps similar in some way to this http://www.lboro.ac.uk/well/resources/technical-briefs/42-small-scale-irrigation-design.pdf However the chances of me coming along and solving this mystery are pretty slim so i’m fully prepared to be shot down in flames.
Should we be looking at irrigation well deigns of the 19th century???
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Bertie. The investigation is still wide open. Your idea of
an irrigation system is an interesting one. One of my early theories
was just the opposite of that. I thought it might have been a drainage
sump for draining the surrounding boggy land. The ground in that area is
pretty wet most of the year. Earlier this year, a farmer was putting in
even more drainage next to the main path. I have read of drainage being
added about 100 years ago. There are several small streams (‘Rises’ on
the old maps) that come to the surface in that area.
Nigel Turnbull
No matter what theory anyone comes up with, it must address the question, “What was the purpose of the large arch?” I will try to get a line drawing with sizes up as soon as I get time. Please keep the ideas coming.
Being from Dunipace, I know this feature as The Blue Pool. As this
investigation has progressed, I have found there are more people
(Plean&Torwood area) who know it as The Blue Water. I am now trying a new hybrid title — The Torwood Blue Water Pool.
Kenny
Went up today with the dog and found the ppol. Water is more a dep green but still pretty clear.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Ken. The blue pool is a circular hole in the
ground with a big arch at the bottom and looks very similar to a Lime
Kiln or Charcoal Kiln. Other than the Blue Pool build quality being much
higher than any Kiln I have seen, our big arch, which would be the
doorway, is 5 metres below ground level and would make for some very
awkward access — mind you, I still quite like the Charcoal Kiln theory. There was an old lime mine and kiln just half a mile from the Blue Water
Pool — my new politically correct name — nothing remains of that kiln.
There was a clay mine to the north — it supplied material for Stein’s
Refractory works near Bonnybridge. There were a couple of stone quarries
that supplied the building industry from Edinburgh to Glasgow. Other
than that, this area has been pretty barren of structures on the old
maps.
Student
Currently Studying Archaeology at Uni…. The “pool” bears a
striking resemblance to a Lime Kiln. Are there any sorts of clay pits or
quarries in the area???
Paul Williams
Hi Nigel Brilliant site!Brought back many memories of when we were younger.Couple
of friends of mine swam in (The Well) about 15 years ago.Middle of
summer and baltic according to them.I also remember planks of wood
floating on the surface every time we went up.Need to get back up soon
to see this fabled archway.Keep up the good work mate.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Paul. During the summer the best time to see the arch is
around 10 a.m. when the sun is shining right on the arch opening — bit
like an Indiana Jones moment. I aint been up there since the end of British Summer Time but I reckon
the best view currently will be at 11 a.m. but the sun is so low in the
sky that it might not touch the arch — the top of which is about 4
metres down. I have been busy with 3d graphics recently for a history project and
hope to use my newfound skills to knock of a 3d scaled diagram with
sections sometime early in 2011.
Kenny
Was up walking the dog today and had a wee nosey at another curio id noticed on google maps…. http://
maps.google.co.uk/maps?
hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=56.039232,-3.878578&spn=0.001537,0.004801&t=f&z=18&ecpose=56.03906492,-3.87857821,481.48,0,2.92,0
Almost a third of a mile north of the “blue pool” is a near perfectly
circular pond with an islan in the middle, the sorta thing you see in
ornamental/landscaped gardens or in a park round a country house. No
house nearbye and it is sitting in the middle of recently cleard
forestry commision ground??? Some link between the two???(either
histoically or physically??)
Nigel Turnbull
Well spotted Kenny (no pun intended). It is a strange shaped pool
indeed. It can just be spotted on Google Satellite but is not indicated
on Ordnance Survey maps. It is about the same level as our Blue Water
Pool. I could not even hazard a guess as to whether it is a natural
feature or not. Just to the east of this ‘Doughnut Pool’, is an old
rusty metal storage vessel shaped like a kettle drum about 3 feet in
diameter and about the same in depth. Another unexplained item just
lying about!
Robert M.
It may have escaped your notice but the beehive structure you
posit is reminiscent of Arthur’s O’On, a Roman building located in the
same parish (recorded but demolished in 1743). It’s possible that the
the local gentry were imitating that structure (of which they would have
been doubtless aware) if they built the cap to the pool. Iadmit this is
wild speculation but it could be worth a look.
Anyway, here is a url on this if you are interested
Thanks for that rather fascinating idea Robert. Someone could
indeed have been emulating Arthur’s O’on (Oven). I did notice when I
checked the details a moment ago that the internal diameter of Arthur’s
O’on is the same as the Blue Water Pool which is exactly 20 feet. The O’on is another local mystery. The favourite theory seems to be a
Temple. I spoke to an ex Carron employee a few weeks ago. He was a Works
Manager who was often in the field overseeing various projects. He
lives in and knows the area well. He has an interesting alternative
theory that I have never before heard mentioned. He knows that there is
an abundance of clear spring water flowing from the nearby hill and he
reckons the O’on may have been a Roman Well.
Kenny
I did notice the rustred “drum” whilst walking my dog yesterday.
Having walked out to the round pond it is (in my opinion) definately not
a natural feature. If you have a look at in on Bing Maps you can see
what looks like an embankment round the pond. As for the blue pool, in
the woods to the north east there appears to be visible on google earth
what potentially could be the ruins of some sort of building???
In the middle of the map (in a small clearing) you can see what looks
to be a wall travelling from north to south then turning 90 degrees and
then running off to the east before dissapearing back under cover of
the trees.???
Nigel Turnbull
I see the north south line Kenny but I can’t make out what it is.
Just as interesting is the bare earth in that area. I recently spoke to
an ex local ploughman 1955-70 about the Blue Pool but after ten minutes
of misunderstanding, it transpired that he had never seen the Blue Pool
and was referring to a small brick building about 8 feet square with a
flat concrete roof and a locked door. On one occasion when the Game
Keeper had the door open to adjust a valve controlling water to several
cattle troughs, this chap saw inside. He said he looked down into a hole
and saw water running through. He could not remember exactly where the
building was after all these years but his best guess put it round about
the area you highlighted with the north south line.
cell
There issomedebate over on the hidden glasgow site about this
pool, latest thinking is that it is alint or retting pool for soaking
flax prior to processing. Cheers Cell
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for the input on a possible flax soaking tank. I discussed
that idea with some people, from the Falkirk Local History Society, who
had knowledge of the Flax Process. Their opinion was that flax was
soaked in any hole in the ground that had fortuitously filled with
water. The Torwood Blue Water Pool was a very expensive and expertly
built piece of engineering with a big arch. That said, no ideas are
discarded here — you never know what pieces of the puzzle will
eventually just drop into place.
Steven Douglas
May I throw my tuppence in. When I was a lad, I lived in Antrim in northern ireland, there was loads
of old ruined flax mills everywhere, (anyone who knows Antrim knows
where they are) close by a lot of these old mills there was/is simaler
looking pools but they where square shaped. . There is one not far from
my mums house, last time I was down at that one it had no water in it.
but that was over 15 years ago. We where told as kids not to go near them as they could be dangerous,
especially if full of water, so naturally a curious 12 year old had to
explore these big pools and old mills. I hope that helps a bit in
solving the mystery.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Steven. It sounds like those tanks were custom
built for the job. Can you remember how their build quality compared to
the Torwood Blue Water Pool? I know very little of the process myself. As an interesting wee aside, Torwood Castle has been a ruin since before
the 1880’s and the man who spent half his life restoring it, Gordon
Millar, reckoned that the final demise of the castle was caused by a
fire that started in bales of flax in the ground floor vaulted rooms. I
doubt that the building was still in use as a dwelling house at that
point.
Robert Murray
Have you given any time to considering the elevation of the pool?
and how it is almost on the same 100m contour line that a few field
drains can be seen around the hill to the south and east. These drains
appear to flow down to a pond just above the Denovan Road and from which
a burn flows down to the Carron. Was there a mill on the river at this point that needed as much water as
possible especially in times of drought? It could be that this pond was
a storage reservoir or holding pond for such a mill, though not having
seen it I don’t know that for sure but it was common for mills to
harness as much water supply as they could get to ensure supply. I would advance the theory – and it ties in with your water tank – that
the pool was a retention tank for a water supply and if not to this
possible mill possibly to your earlier thoughts about supply the Larbert
hospitals. I think that the clay pipes may draw in water from surrounding land
(weak part of the theory admittedly ) but the main tank drew water from a
natural spring at the base of it – hence the clarity and absence of
stagnation – which what you would be expect it to be like – and that the
water went through the tunnel to appear downhill somewhere. Look for a
culvert in the vicinty of Pampwellgoat Wood ……. maybe!
All the best Nigel and happy hunting
Nigel Turnbull
Sound reasoning Robert. Mills did indeed crave for water during
the dry spells. The only mill that I know of that was down stream of the
Blue Water Pool was the Headswood Paper Mill, the lade for which has
powered mills on that site for a long time. The current overflow of the
Pool would not make much difference to a water wheel though this may not
always have been the case. The ‘pool’ you refer to, just north of Denovan Road, is an old quarry at
an area called Salt Pans (that name is another mystery). The stream
rises at a point about half way between the Blue Water Pool and
Thorniedyke Quarry (now filled in) to the west. This is joined by, as
you noted, several streams in the general area. The Salt Pans
quarry/pool might have been a good catchment reservoir for augmenting
the supply to Headswood — I had never thought of that. To reinforce my water-tank theory, I tried to explain away the huge arch
by making it a filter or strainer housing. I can just imagine the
worker closing the valve after filling a large Bleaching Vat at the
Calico Print Works and then the Blue Water Pool taking several hours to
recover its level. I also considered the Pool being a drainage sump for surrounding boggy
land — draining through 3 clay pipes and discharging through the arch to
a stream. All bets are very much still on.
cell
The Canmore site has 28 records of retting ponds, some of which
are in the Falkirk area, with dates that are comparable with the
appearance of the Blue Pool construction. One has the following
description although admitaly the majority are not round.
“A lint vat or tank used for the preparation of flax at Cleuchhead
(NY 098 957), known locally as ‘the lint hole’. An enclosure, something
like a well only wider, 12′ across, 42′ in circumference and perhaps 5′
deep, is now filled up and planted over with trees. There is a stone
built conduit at the bottom, for the draining off of water after the
line has been ‘retted’ or steeped.”
Have you had a look at the pictures of the similar structure over on
Hidden Glasgow? I think it is near cumbernauld and might be worth a
visit to compare.
Steven Douglas
@Nigel The build quality was really sturdy,With similar looking brickwork They
where various different sizes if memory serves, but all square. They
seemed to be about 6 feet deep with draining and filling tunnels 2 each
side and pipes all attached around it. I go over to NI on occasion to
visit family, so I will take a wander down next time im over and grab a
few pics.
Nigel Turnbull
@Cell and @Steven Thanks for the updates. I will try to update the main page with the latest views on flax and water wheels. If you’re not on the mailing list you might want to send me your details. Nigel
Darroch McNab
i’m thinkin that maybe the owners who constructed denovan house
also constructed the pool to provide fresh water also. I have walked my
dog in the area for the last 6 years and have never came across the blue
pool. there could be so many conclusions of the pools origins and i’ll
be following your updates closely because i have now became totally
intrigued by the mystery of the blue pool. I’m also starting my own
reasearch into this mystery and any findings that i think might be
useful i will pass onto yourself
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Darroch and fingers crossed you come up with something. I have added you to the mailing list. Talking to older people in the local community, to get any family
stories of Grandparents who had firsthand knowledge of the Pool, will
probably prove the most fruitful. You may find someone has a story that
seems to fit but the person has no idea where the subject was located,
other than somewhere local. Nigel
Robert Murray
Nigel I’ve just had a look at a new mapping resource called
HAGGIS (aye) which has a close up zoom (planning dept quality) street
level O.S. and the the object is named ‘Tank’ – the area shows to up
well enough that even the pylons are shown.
Thanks for that Robert. I saw the same overlay on a Falkirk
Council computer OS map. It kick started my water tank theory. Looking
back it may just be that the map people did not know what it was and
TANK was the best description they could come up with. If the above was correct, and the OS map records did not know what it was, then it must have been a very short lived asset. After two years I still hold my hands up and say that I aint got a clue — oh for a bit of hard evidence! That’s a handy map site though it was a bit temperamental on my PC with IE8
IAIN WELSH
Hi nigel was up at the blue pool last night and think your guess
is the best so far. I have no idea whatsoever what the purpose of the
blue pool was or is but I have a friend who works for Scottish Water so
I’ll get him to have a good look for a better second opinion. Good luck
with your ongoing investigation and if I learn anything I’ll immediately
update you cheers.
Iain
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Ian. I am just putting the finishing touches to
my Heath Robinson Underwater Camera Device Thingy. With luck, everyone
will be looking inside the arch soon.
David Hunter
Hi Nigel good photo’s! Not sure if this is just pure chance when
you go onto google earth both pools are exactly 1 mile apart as the crow
flys.
Nigel Turnbull
Sorry for the delay David. I have been scratching my head but I
can’t see any significance in the one mile distance between the Pool and
‘Son of Blue’ at Carbrook.
John Gibson
hello i remember this well from when i was a little boy you see
we went up there once, wee ian coulter and me and the poor lad fell in
and never came out. i got the blame but i was not to blame at all.
anyway i’m surprised it’s still open after all these years but i don’t
think i’ll come and see it again.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that John. I have never heard of a human fatality in the Pool. Can you remember what year it happened?
Bruce Thomson
What was the purpose of the pool? and when was it built and who built it?
Nigel Turnbull
These are all good questions. After two years, I can confidently
answer your three questions with the following answers: I don’t know, I
don’t know and I don’t know. As soon as the mystery is solved, you will
be informed — I added you to the mailing list. Nigel
Doug Paterson
Visited the Blue Pool today during a walk round the Broch/Torwood Castle etc.
Well it is a fascinating puzzle isn’t it
Sadly I have no theories to add to the extensive ideas on this site. Well done so far – great stuff
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Doug. I have added you to the mailing list. I
hope to have some interesting images on my next update in the next day
or two. Nigel.
Robert Murray
Fantastic footage Nigel. What a great feat.
Undeniably a tunnel. The odds that it was an escape tunnel for the
Quarter pit are shortening quickly. Visions of a long gently inclined
tunnel is happening for me. Some advice though. Accept some help and advertise your next trip, I’m
sure a few of us will turn out to assist and offer up opinion. I’ll be watching the film again and again. Well done you.
Robert Murray
Looking at the footage again and you have to wonder what is
holding the roof up between the arches – a higher arched roof? Doesn’t
make much sense. The walls between the arches are (from what we can see)
vertical.
I’ll throw another theory into the ring and say that this may not be a
tunnel at all but a roofed over sunken structure. The ‘roof’ might only
be a couple of feet below the heather to the north of the shaft/pool.
The film is fascinating.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Robert. I will keep the team effort idea in mind
for the future but most of the stuff I have done so far has been a one
or two person job. Although my brain is screaming ‘Tunnel’, the only photographic evidence,
at the moment, is of a black void that could indeed be another chamber. The roof of the ‘maintenance chamber’ would be about two by three metres
and could take the form of a concrete slab or framed H-beam steel with a
manhole cover for entry. It could be arched in to a circular hole with
manhole cover. I was surprised that I did not see metal ladder rungs embedded on one of the walls. I was emailed by ‘Obsidian’, who suggested a model submarine. I had
thought of designing a submersible platform with camera and lights but
decided it would probably take me for ever and cost more than I could
afford. If anyone out there already has a similar device and would like
to give it a workout then please get in touch. Lots of people have suggested getting a diver down there but we have
more unknowns than knowns — what if the apparent bottom of the Pool, at 5
metres, is just some wedged debris build up and the real depth is 100
metres? I don’t think that is likely but it is a possibility. Nigel
Robert Murray
Your right a diver is not a good idea at all. Some kind of
submersible robot camera is probably the best bet …… but how many folk
have one of those lying in the shed?
Wouldn’t be a good idea to dig down from the heather either but maybe
prodding down with a steel pole? The ground seemed pretty softish when
we were up in April.
Matt
What about the good old fashioned art of dowsing? Might give you an idea as to how far the tunnel extends from the pool.
That is of course if you believe that the practice works – if it did the
results would be instant and obvious.
Stop laughing! I’m being serious.
I’m not offering my services by the way. I did see a guy do it once
on an episode of Time Team and those bendy metal rods did their job
alright (in the right hands of course).
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Matt. I tried some thin brass rods with amazing results. I
tried them again with erratic, conflicting and inconsistent results.
After a bit it seemed that if the vertical part of the rod (the bit in
the hand) varied even a fraction from the vertical then the long
horizontal part would swing violently even when you are not walking
forward. If anyone thinks s/he has the power, I look forward to the report. May the Force be with you. Nigel
James Milne
Hello again Nigel,
I’ve got that friday afternoon….mind wandering over to Torwood again
feeling. You know how you wonder if its an air shaft related to the
coal/fireclay mines – I’ve been doing a bit of ferreting about I found
this image – http://www.flickr.com/photos/rikj/5773582312/in/photostream/ look at the colour of the water. Orange – I’ve seen this before with
water that comes out of mines. With the water in the pool being so clear
and having a low iron content, I wonder if the pool is connected to the
mines ?
I’m trolling trough images of coal and fire clay mines on google –
I’m seeing lots of drift mines but no vertical cylindrical shafts.The
ones I do see have doors, or remains of doors above. There is alot of
industrial debris lying about, but the blue pool has very little. You
mention other mines in the area. Is there any industrial archeology at
the surface in the vicinity of these locations ? I’m thinking if they
are related and mine related there would be more ruined buildings and
metal work about ?
See above site – look at the colour of the water coming out !
Have you thought about contacting the National scottish Mining museum
– they must have archives of coal and fire clay mines and they would
definately have people who know mines and could tell you what your
dealing with ?
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that James. The photos of mine workings are first class. I am still looking at the link you emailed me http://codesmiths.com/dingbat/lj/200601__/glyn_pit/ and there is a rising arched tunnel very similar to the Muiravonside Pit Airshaft printed earlier in this report. Orange water is usually associated with Iron. Quarter Colliery
originally worked Ironstone but later dug down to the Bannockburn Main
Coal seam which it was working when it closed in 1910. The lack of old buildings, rail and roads around the Pool indicates that it was not a production shaft. It’s not an airshaft yet but it seems to be heading that way. Nigel
Robert Murray
The pit (blue pool) could possibly have housed a beam engine and
the chamber a fan with the shaft behind it running down towards the pit
workings. If that were the case then there would have had to be an
access stair around or a ladder to the pit/pool floor and probably a
hatch on the roof near the fan. That said I have a problem with this
being built so far away from the pithead, unless it doubled as an escape
road which would have required a fairly gentle gradient.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Robert. IF! it is an airshaft/tunnel, was it natural draft
or power fan? The distance of one mile from the production shaft to the
Pool certainly gives pause for thought. I have now managed to find
where magnetic north was at the time of the disaster in 1895 when the
drawing of the workings was done. I hope to rotate and overlay it on a
modern map to see how the Pool might fit into the picture. Nigel
Robert Murray
I don’t think there was such a thing as as ‘natural draft’. Mining engineering took its place. Mine ventilation was carefully
engineered as illustrated by the plan of the 1895 disaster where the air
flow across the workings from the downcast and upcast shafts is seen. Closed doors, curtains, bits of wood, anything to control the draught – in the proper direction.
No mention of anything from the direction of Torwood.
David and Stephanie hunter
Hi Nigel what a fantastic film This of course enspired David to
get the Dowsing rods out!!! He went missing for some time following one
of the two tunnels. The known arch as far as electric sub station about 1
mile,second tunnel believed to be 2metres wide straight line to the
river carron! Possiable 3 tunnel he has not followed yet, I strongly
believe that they are there. This blue pool is bigger than what you
think,David still believes that both pools are linked also we need to
get a core sample which would help find oringanal depth. Also David
reckons that there is two hidden arches much deeper as the direction the
tunnles are going drops.
The dowsing rods WORK perfect not sure how but they work!!!!
Hi Niegal again the path that Dave followed takes you straight to the
carron resevoir, the 2 new tunnels one goes to Denny the other Larbert
area I believe what the blue pool does is it brings the water level down
not sure how to word it but you need to start investigating fresh
water!!!
James Milne
Right, now this is me thinking out loud – I’m probably spouting
stuff you guys have already thought of or gone through, but maybe my
random muttering may spark an idea
Housing for a Beam Engine – these beams are massive and usually the
walls to house the beam were a structural support for the MASSIVE beam –
these buildings, all over the UK are still standing – why would some
one have employed considerable effort to remove all trace of this ? So I
think this is doubtful.
I think (and I’m probably wrong) that the lack of colour to the
water, suggests that its not iron related, by iron I’m thinking
ironstone (siderite rich layers in the carboniferous ?) or coal or fire
clay – fireclay is the soil beneath the coal this is often sideritic
(iron carbonate) Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here. So I’m being
contoverisal here – but I’m thinking its not mine related. However: http://www.flickr.com/photos/peteredin/sets/72157619070376639/with/3589621753/ THis shows two pictures of water from Birkhall mine one with heavily stained water the other not …. But there is also a lack of machinery for ventilation – maybe it
predates mechanical ventilation – maybe relying on its height above sea
level to act like a chimney and draw the air through the mine
Possible indications for a water course design : Manhole – what the heck is the manhole for? Inspection or mechanical
on/off switches as the main structure holds something you cant get into –
it looks suspicially watery to me The pipes look like water pipes with recesses in them that I wonder is for a grill. The tunnel appears to head off on a heading that seems to contour the
hill..BUT your at the 100m contour – can you contour round the M80 to
the Loch Colter or North Third reservoir ? Have a look at this website: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Air_shaft_beside_Barden_Road_-_geograph.org.uk_-_513592.jpg could this be an analogue ?
Is the pool a controling (manhole)/ regulating header tank to for a
drinking water supply to the rapidly industrialising Denny/Stenhousemuir
area ?
Any thoughts?
How to get proof ?
David and Stephanie Hunter
This is drinking water reason being there is clay on the outside
of the brick which was to stop contamination to the water from rain
water. Back to Son of blue pool this has 2 2metre tunnels one of them pointing
directly to the blue pool the other heading for Tor-burn, now the blue
pool has a 3rd tunnel which points directly to carron iron works!!!!!! So for no evedance of a tunnel from blue pool pointing towards son of
blue your tunnel points towards NORTH THIRD RESERVOIR (4miles from blue
pool now that is a lot of tunnel)Dave followed this for about a mile!
You need to investagate the resevoirs,you also need someone with GPS now
remember this was all done with dowsing rods and again it works
perfect!!!
James Milne
Do you have some grid references. I’m struggling to picture it geographically, but I reckon your on to something there I’ve been searching for water networks but I’m struggling. There must be something out there….
David Hunter
Hi James bare with me this is using google earth and memory so
not so accurite if you draw a striaght line from the blue pool to north
third reservoir I followed for at least a mile with dowsing rods. The
next one is from blue pool to denny 56o01’26.73″N 3o53’24.21″W Son of blue is located 56o02’51.88″N 3o52’07.63″W First tunnel points directly at blue pool have only followed this as far as Glen road! the second one of the son of blue I followed to 56o02’55.70″N 3o52’20.53″W I am hoping to get out at the wkend to follow this further
James Milne
I’ve just re-read your pages – page 1, 6 oct 2009 update.. the land used to be owned by the Carron Iron works….various places used
it as a water supply…and the “spring” was there pre 1865. I guess the
Carron works were going from 1760 onwards. But North Third reservoir was
built in the 1930s…presumably loch Coulter was ?
Sounds more and more like a drinking water supply to me but what exactly was its purpose and where did the water come from ?
Just thinking about what I had written …All that pipe work in the
pool appears to be contemporaneous with the brick work – it doesnt look
like its been added later, the clay pipes look like stuff I dig out of
the ground round the house and there is insitu iron pipes. Iron pipes –
how long will they last under water?, then there is the guttering
etc….has this water supply been upgraded when the reservoirs were built –
1930s ?
I’ve just been looking at the loch Katrine water supply project for
comparison….8 ft diameter, 10 inches fall per 1 mile – the tunnel would
have to contour the ground surely? How deep does your dowsing kit detect
water to?
1930s Header tank – giving a head of 70 metres to the residents in
the valley below…is it really big enough for that….guess if it was
Carron iron works it might be….
Nigel this really would make a cracking Time Team special – they’d have it solved in no time….go on give them a call
Dave and Steph
At last we got you Nigel I reckon we need time team on this give us a call as Dave is going dowsing at the wkend!!
Nigel Turnbull
That wee video has certainly got some response — emails and comments are coming in quicker than I can respond. Thanks to David and Stephanie Hunter for all your work and input. I have
seen David work those dowsing rods with remarkable effect at ‘Son of
Blue’ on the grounds of the old Carbrook House just a mile from the
Torwood Blue Water Pool. I would like to see a map of your findings and
put it on the web page with your conclusions. Although I am currently
still an ‘Airshaft Advocate’, I still have an open mind and have been
dredging the Scotsman Archives and following reports on Loch Coulter
being incorporated into the Falkirk & Larbert Water Trust — later
Stirlingshire Water. I can’t find any reference of a link to Torwood. I
did not research North Third Reservoir. You have me fair flummoxed with
the tunnel to Carron Iron Works. Thanks to James Milne. My best guess is that the manhole and one inch
metal pipe were later modifications marking a change of use. A pipe
connecting Loch Coulter or North Third Reservoir to Torwood would
certainly have to go deep to get under the main Denny to Stirling Road
or the newer M80 that follows the same route. Scotsman newspaper reports
from 1885 follow the acquisition of Loch Coulter for the Falkirk Water
Scheme. It is my understanding that they increased the capacity of this
natural loch. Thanks for all the interesting links you are posting.
A tunnel – I dont think it is what they say it is. If Larbert house
was built in 1822, I wonder if the tunnel predates the house. The duck
pond was built at the same time as the house.
Is this tunnel connected to the Torwood pool – can some one get some
bearings of the tunnel ? Has anybody chatted to this Geoff Bailey keeper
of archaeology at Falkirk ? – It stands directly between Torwood pool
and the Carron Iron works ….coincidence ?
It also ties in with the hospital taking its water from torwood
Robert Murray
James you discount that ‘tunnel’ – it started off as a lane that
was covered over either side of a bridge. I’ve been in it and the roof
in consultation with old maps that show it as a sunken lane tells the
story.
James Milne
Fair enough – benefits of local knowledge.
I was looking at the OS map last night. There isnt a way through to
the reservoirs maintaining a constant drop to end up at the 100 m
contour at Torwood pool. You have to go down then up again at the
motorway. I doubt they would do this.
I think your already ahead of me here Nigel, perhaps there was a
change of use, to water supply later in field life. Which again brings
you back to the mines – was it a drift mine that was modified (all the
brick work put in) ito create a water header tank once the mining was
finished ? I guess the Carron Iron work could also have purchased the
land to mine the iron and coal first, then required a clean (from a
mine!) source of water off the hills rather than the contaminated Carron
river water ?
Nigel Turnbull
Carron Iron Works took a lease on Torwood in 1760 for the supply
of charcoal from the timber. I don’t know if the lease was continuous up
until they purchased Torwood around 1914. To the best of my knowledge,
Carron Iron Works never extracted minerals from underground in that
area. New update coming in an hour or so. Nigel
Look forward to seeing your map David to see where you are exactly. A
ploughman from Todhill (1955-70) told me that the large water tank next
to Torwood Castle is an emergency supply for industry at Grangemouth.
The big pipe cuts across the castle’s ground then south of Todhill
before turning in the Larbert Stenhousemuir direction. He was not sure
of the exact route it took then. Nigel
Robert Murray
Brilliant analysis from Miles – who is a member of http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/bbs/forums/ – I took the liberty of posting a link there a few days ago asking for
opinions of their underground enthusiasts. (‘Stirlingshire Mystery’).
There is also a team from Edinburgh area one of whom is a diver and
might manage to do a dive early next year.
Looking good anyway although as Nigel says ‘Case no closed yet’
Nigel Turnbull
I was on that site Robert and saw the request — are you the ‘son of a miner’? Well done. Most exciting input we have had. Nigel
Robert Murray
Aye thats me Nigel. My Da’ went doon the pit in December 1919.
A Drain the Pool party sounds the bizzo! Count me in.
James Milne
Thank you Miles !
That is absolutely facinating, do you have some links where we can
learn more ? The blocked passage explains the lack of colour to the
water, which threw me completely – so the water coming out is just
filtered ground water – hence…..a possible change of use ?
Nigel, what about a drain the pool party ! I’ll bring a genny ! It
would be great to meet everybody and have a chat about the area and
industrial archeology
And Nigel, this website is great – this is what the internet is designed for. Thanks for all the effort you’ve put in.
David Hunter
Hi James that is the best idea yet a drain the pool party! This web page is great well done to Nigel
David Hunter
The tunnel from the blue pool shaves pasts the Glenbervie
roundabout (motor way side)under the bowling clubat Burnhead road,under
the rugby pitch at Larbert High School and then picked up again in front
of carron iron works clock tower and then under the carron.I have got
as far as the houses in Laglees!!! It appears to be headin for the
sewage works or the forth,I do not know what I am following with the
dowsing rods but I am preety sure mines do not go in a straight
line!!!!I am going to make a map of where I have been and post it on for
nigel.
Elaine Bell
Well done Nigel – seems the mystery is finally solved – where has Miles been all this time. All very intersting.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks Elaine but I can’t quite stamp it Case Closed just yet. If
the video confirms the vertical shaft, I would still like to find a
manhole cover with the name William Baird on it — and there are still
Beehive Roofs and OG shaped guttering and possible change of use to
account for. Nigel
Mystery solved then – Only thing I’d say in defence of the comment >
A local from Torwood village remembers the Game Keeper in 1960
describing how the pool used to have a Beehive roof that had since
fallen in and the loose bricks were clearly visible on the bottom.
There are images of air-shafts with metal grid roofs – that could be
described as beehive shaped – perhaps the builders put one of these on
as an extra safeguard. It would most likely have been a metal grid
rather than brick though.
Andy, I have seen photographs of air shafts with domed metal grid
covers. Whether Torwood Blue ever had one, we will probably never know
but the one and only account of the Beehive Roof specifically refers to
the Bricks at the bottom of the Pool being the remnants of the Beehive
Roof. Nigel
David Hunter
Hi Nigel this is so exciting I have followed what I can now call
the MINE SHAFT from son off blue to the cross road plean back road found
another shaft same brick but square and there is no tunnel on the other
side. Knocked on the gentlemans door at the plean back road and the man
tells me his house was the head pitt mans house this confirming COAL
and the son of blue is conected (Dave is jumping up and down with
excitment) all thanks to two pieces of bent iron. Surely that means it
is date able??? How exciting is that
Nigel Turnbull
Sounds intriguing David — can’t wait to find out more. I am having a bit of a panic attack with the Pool Draining Party. I know
that Miles made it all sound quite straight forward but he and his
explorers are very experienced and have a lot of expensive equipment and
know how to use it. My nightmare is of inexperienced people trying to
keep their footing on slimy stinking mud while feeling their way through
a dark tunnel to the edge of an 800 foot drop with no idea of how solid
the roof of the tunnel is. I think more should be done with a remote
camera.
Robert Murray
Just as a matter of interest if you look a bit more closely at
the 1979 photo by Caroline Kerr you can clearly see the brick t the
bottom left hand corner is more than one brick high. This supports the
now lost boundary wall view proposed by Miles, then again …. the
current brick is definitely flush – and finished looking – as if it
originally was as it is now, then again …… maybe the wall above was
added afterwards – just laid upon the original finish (the current
situation) to make a safety barrier which was easily demolished over
time and pushed into the flooded shaft.
Nigel Turnbull
Robert, we have a fairly recent and reliable report from John
Gillespie that around 1954 there was a wall all the way round the Pool
and the only way he could see the water was to pull himself up and look
over the wall. He was 14 years of age. Nigel
Robert Murray
Thats right Nigel and Caroline’s photo confirms John’s
recollection but as I’ve ventured ealier, considering the flushness of
the present brickwork lip the wall must/might have been an ‘add on’.
Robert Murray
There is still the matter of the rectangular pit just inside the treeline to be explained away of course.
Nigel Turnbull
That’s true Robert. It’s nearly time to investigate possible change of use. Nigel
Robert Murray
It was full of water up to about 2ft. from the top the day we
were up there. Quite awkward to get over it to nosey about in the trees
for more clues That key you took a photo of must signify the existence a valve in it eh? Why?
Gordon McFadyen
Hi Nigel,.. Was a pleasure to finally meet you today up at the
blue pool whilst doing a little on-site investigation with Davie(The
Digger) Hunter,..that man loves a spade eh!!!. Yeh it was quite exciting
to “Watch” Davie dig down on the NNW side of the pool about 1.5 mtrs
from the perimeter to a depth of 2 ” feet approx to find the outside
bricked wall of the arched tunnel,..pretty cool. I’m up for dumping out
the water if at all possible,..but the pump can only drain 11 cube per
hour,..what do you think Nigel,..Davies up for it,..quite an interesting
couple of hours today.
Nigel Turnbull
Yes Gordon, it was a worthwhile day. I will take a look at the photos later. Nigel
James Milne
Finally got to visit the area. I was working from memory and was
on a tight schedule. It was peeing it down and blowing a gale – feet
soaked running up the track to the wood from the south east. Didnt
realise there were 3 lots of electrity lines crossing the area. got the
middle one – through the dense gorse, through the soaking wet heather,
disturbed 6 roe deer, lifted a woodcock and a male kestrel from feet
from me – cracking view. But no pool – walked as far as the wall. Noted
all the square depressions in the ground – are these subsidence related
from the coal mining below ?
Made my way back to the car soaked from the waist down ! Got back to
the computer and realised my mistake – I was within 100m of the pool to
the north. … Next time…. Noted in the gorge near the road a large waterfall in full spate, with
alot of concrete retaining walls around the area – anybody know reason
for all the concrete – couldnt get a good view and didnt have time to
have a mooch.
Also went to Summerlee industrial Heritage centre. Bit disapointed by
the girls description of the “coal mine” But my 3 year old son enjoyed
it
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks James. You are not the first to make that mistake. I have
never been in that clearing and have never seen the square depressions.
You could be kicking off another investigation. Nigel
David Hunter
Hi James we are in Torwood and have never noticed this can you
tell us how far up this is? Next dry day we shall take a walk up and
have a look may get some pictures
Tony Oldham
A coal mine. Either a haulage shaft or an air shaft.
Path from Torwood Castle churned up but firm due to the frost (though
a quagmire on return walk due to higher temp – melting frost)
Evidence of digging to N.W. of pool/shaft. At least two sites, furthest being up to 15m away from subject.
Evidence of previously unseen foreign material white in colour (white clay?) within pool/shaft around the part of archway.
Damaged/deformed shaped iron/steel key (approx. 2m + long) noticed
lying beside inspection/valve pit to south-east of pool/shaft. Said pit
still waterlogged from 600mm below top.
Many cut lengths of birchwood lying around the pool/shaft.
This inspection/valve pit must have something to do with the main subject.
Nigel Turnbull
Well spotted Robert. It was near the end of last year. I left
before the excavations were filled in but I have some interesting
photos. I will include them in the next update where I hope to orientate
and scale the workings of quarter Colliery over a Google map. I am
struggling for time at the moment but hope to have it done this month.
Come the better weather, I hope to get some better video inside the arch
to verify the latest theory that I think most of us have decided is the
original purpose of the Torwood Blue Water Pool/Dog-leg Airshaft. Nigel
Robert Murray
16 Jan was a frosty morning and all puddles were iced over up at
Torwood. I ommitted to mention that there was no film of ice on the
water of the ‘pool’ which ties in with the air shaft/warmer water
theory. In fact the water was over-flowing out of the ‘pool’ from the
removed brick at the south-eastern side. Quite a lot of flow actually.
I have to keep mentioning that inspection/valve pit. Its not there
for nothing. What could it possibly have had to do with an air shaft?
David Hunter
Hi Robert Murray you must take a look at Carbrooke dry pool
(airshaft) It has the same inspection/valve pit as the blue pool with
all pipe work on show?????
Nigel Turnbull
Robert, the manhole is still a mystery. It seems to line up with a
short stub of 1” iron pipe that sticks out the bottom of the pool and
points towards the arch. There may have been an outbuilding with a wood fired boiler that
supplied steam via a shut-off valve 3 metre underground in the manhole. The steam could have been used to power maintenance equipment in the
airshaft or if, when the Pit closed around 1910 and the shaft flooded,
someone converted it to a Spa/Pool and the steam was for heating the
Pool for a few hours before the gentry took their dip. Nigel
David Hunter
ok Dave is thinking out loud again Nigel! this is not closed the
facts are the pit head at Plean cross road has coke kilens the buy
product of coke is coal gas less than a mile away Carbrooke House has a
gasometer FACTS!!!! The pit head (gasometer) and the blue pool are all
the same brick and 99.9% sure they are all linked by tunnel. Why was the
pit producing coke (coal gas)
Nigel Turnbull
Hi Dave. Hopefully we can meet up this year so you can give me a
tour of the Plean Kilns which were, I think, next to Plean Number 3
Shaft. It would be good to get some photos. I have always assumed that
these large Coking Kilns produced Coke to be used in Iron Foundries for
smelting as it can burn at higher temperatures than coal. The gas is
indeed a by-product which could either be sold to users in the immediate
vicinity or simply feed gas-burners to heat the Kilns. I can’t imagine why there would be interconnecting tunnels. As for the
bricks all being the same — they may have been sourced from the same
nearest local brickworks. Nigel
Robert Murray
Photo of an oven of the East Plean Colliery they forgot to demolish.
Apart from the valve pit/manhole on the edge of the trees I also
canny quite get my head round why the pool/shaft entrance/pit/whatever
had to be so big? Such a huge hole in the ground just to access a passageway?
This puzzle has not been completely solved in my book.
andy arthur
If it helps your investigation, this is marked on the 1959 1:2500
OS map as a “tank”. It doesn’t appear on the 1917 1:2500 sheet, so at
least that places when it might have been constructed.
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Andy. If you look at the top of page 1, there is a
coloured map from the 1930’s that shows the Pool as a large dot but
does not identify .it. The forest has been clear felled in this area.
Previous maps showed this area as mixed forest and I suspect the Pool
may well have been missed on them — either accidently or deliberately.
The area was still clear in the 1970’s and seems to have been reforested
(up to the power-line clearing) during the 1980’s. Nigel
Richard Holmes
I went up to see the blue pool with our walking group on Saturday 03 March 2012.
The pool had bluish clear water and sparse weed. I thought I saw two
brick arches, one on the north side and the other on the south side. The
site intrigued me.
In mind of Guestbook site previous reports of submerged pipes, a
nearby manhole, key etc I find it most easy to think of this site as
having had some former industrial reservoir use in Victorian times or
thereabouts. That is, the pool was purpose built to provide a
gravity-driven head of water which with a requirement also for pure
water. A pure head of water used for quenching coking ovens, or for
hospital use?- both sound good to me(previous suggestions posted at this
site). Pure water (with neglible dissolved minerals)would also be
valuable for supplying clean water to boilers to provide power for steam
engines. I presume that the low pH and low dissolved mineral content
would militate against mineral scale forming in the boiler systems. Pure
water generating steam power could conceivably have been used for
lifting contaminated water for from mines, quarries and/or lifting
solids from mines, quarries and/or for mine ventillation.
The previous Guestbook report of concrete staunchions set into the
(nearby?) country side also points to a local history of industrial-size
incline-based lifting.
My thoughts about a connection to former industrial use do not tie in
easily with reported rapid drops in level unrelated to rainfall. I do
not know how to think around that problem – unless we are forced to
think the almost unthinkable- someone is using the water, perhaps
unwittingly.
Martin
Took the mutt a walk up Torwood on March 20, had a nosey at the
Pool – I noticed some clown has thrown the metal pole/turnkey for the
square drain into the Blue Pool
Nigel Turnbull
Thanks for that Martin. I will have a look when I am fit enough to get back up there and maybe fish it out.
Colin Crawford
Speaking to my dad today says it was 60 years ago he was
there,the Blue pool at that time (1950ish) had a 6 foot high metal wall
surround with metal beams across the top ,but no roof.As a boy he had to
climb up the sides to see the water on the other side.Hope this helps.
Dean
Is there any trash around your pool?
Rosalyn
We visited the Blue Pool today for the first time. It was
possible to see to the bottom which was full of branches and debris. We
saw the tunnel arch. There had been fires lit around the pool and
bottles etc around the area. Really interesting place. Some sort of work
was being done to Torwood Castle today as well.
Martin
Was up at the Blue Pool in early January, haven’t saw the water so clear in a while, no litter either. Glad to see someone’s removed the infantile patter from here too
Irnbru
I have been continuing the work left by Nigel.
I would like to contact whoever now administers this website in order to update them with my recent findings.
Dave + Stephanie Hunter
Hi we would like to continue with the Blue Pool also, we meet
Nigel a few times and took him dowsing. I am not sure who is the
administer of the sight, the gentleman who has access to the Torwood
Castle knew Nigel and may know? HOpe this helps
Alana Bowman
Absolutely fascinating, I have never heard of this and have asked
various family members who know nothing about it either. I shall
definitely be going for a nosey. would love to find out one day what it
was.
Irnbru
Further investigation has revealed that this is NOT a colliery
air shaft. It may well still be an air shaft for a mine – but it is
definitely not the Quarter Colliery.
Martin
Had the fleabag a walk up Torwood on 2nd June – Water level of
the pool was at least 3ft from the top row of bricks…never saw it so
low. Has someone been draining it?
David + Stephanie Hunter
After a least 25 years of searching I have found and own the photos of Carbrook House and Coach House. Anyway back to blue pool! Whilst researching Carbrook basement I have
found out that the same red unmarked brick (hand thrown) is the same as
Carbrook pool and the blue pool. Anyone who has read my previous finds
wil see that I beleive both pools are connected, so the question now is
if the house and Carbrook pool are built of the same brick and are
connected to the blue pool all on the Forresters Land the brick is the
same age WHY? If this was air shafts for a coal works why would the Laid
allow this to be behide his coach house? I have more questions than
answer So wish we had found these photos sooner Nigel would have loved
to see them. We are also waiting for the mine works maps for Torwood.
WARNING Carbrook basements are not safe to go down very dangerous.
adminPost author
Interesting find and thank you for sharing. The Torwood mine
works maps may reveal quite a lot and may create more questions than
answer!
What are your thoughts on posting the photos on this site? I’d be
interested in seeing those. I fear though they may be creating more
questions that answers too!
David + Stephanie Hunter
Hi yes we are looking forward to seeing the mine works as Dave wants to prove that his dowsing works! I can email you the photos we took of the basement at Carbrook but the
photos I got I am not sure about the copy right law I will ask if I can
do this. I think you are right about then mine works giving more questions than answers really looking forward to seeing them. Going back to the dowsing Dave met Nigal a number of times and on one
occation Dave showed Nigel Dowsing he has been alround Torwood carron
iron works Denny Dunipace Denevon and Plean collinary and the blue pool
is a spiders web of tunnels! One of which leeds to Carbrook pool which
appears to have two tunnels one leading to the blue pool the other to
plean coke kilens (back road at Plean) the by product of coke is coal
gas !!!!!!
Could this man made structure not be a remnant of the now closed company “Torwood Brick and Fireclay Ltd”
We remember arranging insurance for a company in Denny (can’t remember the name} but their job was to reclaim the linings of kilns from old works. Could it have been the case that there was a structure above the ground and it was only removed to ground level?
Thanks for the input Agnes. The only reference I can find to the Torwood Brick and Fireclay Co. is a site owned by Bonnybridge Silica & Fireclay Co. http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/140166/details/carbrook+clay+mine/ (Carbrook Clay Mine — alternate name, Torwood Mine) and located, I think, north of Torwood and quite some distance from the Blue Pool. It closed in 1982, which may have tied up with the time you refer to.
More importantly, it was only opened in the 1940’s http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/community/cultural_services/museums/archives/finding_aids/PDFs/business/brickmaking.pdf and we know the pool was already there in the 1930’s — I suspect the pool is actually a lot earlier than 1930. Regards, Nigel
Walked to this pool in the summer on the way to the Broch. On the assumption that it’s probably not a unique structure, you would tend to look elsewhere for something similar? Having had a scout around it looks like a early-mid or late 1800′s cesspit which would be consistent with the height of the pipe and the story of the old beehive roof. Given the Carron ironworks was the largest smelting works in europe from 1800′s onward, employing over 1000 people this might make sense as they owned the land and would not have had modern drainage to start with.
If you do a search for archeological cesspit design (not that I make a habit of it) you can find similar types of builds, the link below is a smaller build but could indicate it’s the same type of construction.
http://www.community-archaeology.org.uk/projects/UnderstandingOspringe/K48rep.htm
Have you had the sediment at the bottom tested for traces of sewage? (until you do, I wouldnt swim in it )
Very interesting though, good luck.
Brgds Stuart
Nigel:
I loved the video and all the actor’s comments. I was in Scotland in 1995 for a family reunion, and am sorry we didn’t get to spend more time at Torwood Castle. Mr. Gordon Millar was living then, and working night and day on Torwood’s restoration.
Your little film makes me homesick to see the Castle and explore the Torwood. Thank you so much for your efforts.
Your’s Aye,
Annette Hixenbaugh Regional Commissioner CLAN FORRESTER, U.S.A.
Dear Natalie, Thanks for your input. You are obviously aware that we found and photographed (part of) the predicted brick arch. My ears fair ******* up when you used the plurals archway(s) and tunnel(s) — that’s a first for this investigation. There’s a lot of rising water breaks the surface in the Torwood area. The old maps show several ‘Rises’ and one ‘Spring’. If the Blue Pool is connected to old mine workings, it could be that the workings are now flooded. Wallace never visited the cave that takes his name. I too remember it from my youth. It is actually a very old mine working and definitely an unsafe place to be going anywhere near these days. The opening is in a crumbling rock face and large chunks have fallen off fairly recently. Best just to visit Wallace’s Monument
mmm I see the over exuberant auto-censor has changed my perfectly innocent word, describing the action of my ears, into something sinister.
Hi,
I was just skimming your blue pool website. I noticed you refer to springs and uprising sources of water. I’m VERY interested in this, we are currently trying to convince the govt to object to coal Sean gas drilling under torwood, Larbert and plean. One major concern is gas escape via old workings and contamination of the water table. An upward flow of water could indicate a significant subterranean feature. Could you please tell me more….
Regards,
Rob
Hello,
It’s with regret that Nigel, who collated this information, passed away last year. The information has been migrated here to ensure it is kept in the public domain and that further updates can be continued.
Regards
Thanks Eric — I note your observation on the iron content but I don’t have the expertise to comment. There was a fair bit of Ironstone mining around Dunipace. When the seams were exhausted, the same pits concentrated on the coal strata. I agree with your proposed date.
Thanks Cameron — I think it would depend on the particular mine and strata. In the nearby town of Falkirk, some of the earliest piped water supplies were drawn from redundant mines. It was an offence to source water from a working mine, though this did occasionally happen with unfortunate results.
Regards, Nigel
Great reading about the “Blue pool”. I used to swim in this pool as a kid (30+ yrs ago), and we all new it as “The Blue Water”. I was told about this site only today ( thanks Jane) and thought I would have a look as I have only recently started walking back int this area over the past few months. The thing I remeber about the “Blue “Water” was that if you throw a small stick into the pool it would immediately sink to the bottom, I tried this out again just last week and the same thing happened. The earlier post that states that this was a sewage stank does make me shiver at the thought of swimming in there however that would probably explain my rapid receeding hairline
Was up at the “Blue Water” earlier this evening and again threw in a stick, guess what? it floated, tried it again and again and it kept floating , so I guess that makes a nonsense of my earlier post. One good thing, the water was very clear which made it quite easy to see the arch.
Hi Nigel, as discussed when we bumped into each other last week up at the pool. The local man is Davy McArtney, worked at Todd Hill farm all his days and is now in his late 70′s. I spoke to Davy in the passing the other night and he remembers the pool very well. Davy told me that this used to be used as a water supply for the surrounding farms. This water supply was for the cattle only as the farm dwellings had a seperate water supply. The pool serviced many fields and has many lead pipes leading from it that ran to various troughs. The pool was covered over over and was in fact a shed, that is where you will have gotten the slate and the cast pipe from. The only person that had access to this structure back then was the old game keeper who had a key to the shed and used to regulate the water to the fields by adjusting some valves.
I only got a brief run down from Davy as I was in a hurry however he has said that he will try and give me a detailed sketch of the layout of the pool and pipe work. I will also get confirmation of the game keepers name.
Regards
David
Thanks very much for that David – a very interesting lead indeed. I have removed David McCarney’s (contact) details from this post. Sounds like he was working at Todhill from around 1950. The shed is fascinating and would certainly explain flat slates and half round guttering and planks of wood. The curved metal casting (similar to OG guttering) would not be so easily explained by the above.
It is possible that the Blue Pool had a change of use/purpose during its lifetime. I have several witnesses (including myself) from the early sixties who remember the Pool looking much the same as today and nobody recalled a shed so it may have been damaged by storm or dismantled towards the end of the 1950’s The description would contradict an account I already have (only one witness) of the pool looking the same in the 1930’s as it does now – unless it was a short lived shed built at the end of the 30’s I will certainly contact David McCartney at the suggested location but that will be about two weeks away. I will try to get a quick update uploaded to the web page soon.
2nd May 2010 I David Hunter from Torwood now have the answer to your question. I have just found a second red brick air vent with square manhole next to it,this is now giving the correct answer to what the blue water is. This is perfactly in line with carbrooke clay mines main,this to to difficult to explain will post photos soon.
The web site you need to go onto is type in carbrooke clay mine torwood and then click into Scotlands place record page Carbrooke Clay Mine, you will then see the pictures click onto the one with the pit entrance and if you follow the picture the second blue water is right at the bottom.
I can now confirm this is the same diametre as the blue water,also the same brick there is also slate. Clay is also around the external of the wall,the square has cast iron pipes!Have no idea what it is seems to be full of some kind of oil! Both of these have been filled in with soil, location the old Carbrooke stables.
Just done some more research the Carbrook Clay Mine opened in 1953 so it really rules out that they were for the mine!So back to square one the next theory was why are there are two the same size both with a manhole and one is next to the castle the next one is next to Carbrook House WHY!!!!! Is there any more? Why is the one we found got oil in the manhole? Also this one has been filled in with soil and the first one has water in it! Surely there is someone out there with an answer.
An amazing find David – well done. How did you ever think to look there? I took some photos tonight but the light was getting low. It certainly has a lot of similarities. It measures 19ft 5ins internal diameter and the Blue Pool is exactly 20ft.
I spoke with your lead, David McCartney on Friday. He is a wealth of useful local information but he has never seen the Blue Pool. He was referring to a small brick building maybe a couple of hundred metres NE of Blue Pool – an interesting snippet just the same.
Keep up the hunt David – you’re doing a great job. I don’t think I have your email on the mailing list.
If you think it’s mining related, perhaps try the Summer Lee Heritage Museum, Coatbridge for some answers? Do you think it’s a natural spring or if it was a natural spring would it not flow constantly? Does anyone on the site know of a diver to go down and have a look?
Take care Susan & Elaine
hi blue pool guy me and my friend mark egan visited the blue pool today and we think that it could possibly be clay at the bottom of this pool to create its magnificant blue colour due to the clay Very fine clay in suspension in the water diffracts light in different ways producing a spectrum of colour sometimes green sometimes turquoise.do not quote me on this one but it would possibly explain . blue colour and colour changes in different seasons…. by the way what happened to the pices of debris you found around the pool site ?? me and my friend mark would like to meet up with you at this pool at sumtime to discuss more in person hope to hear back from you soon….
if anybody else was able to get me and mark some diving gear we will go down for a nosey
Hi Nigel I still rekcon it is a kiln! My reasons well there is a few but after the dome is complete the steel band/iron should be tightened the walls plastered with a fine clay mortar and the dome brushed with a clay slurry ti close all cracks and openings.There is a site on charcaol kilns no 8.1 which shows a perfect picture the door is underground,we started to dig away that find yesterday and would love to investagate more. David is sticking with the air shaft theory but me I believe it is a charcaol kiln!
Hi Nigel spent the day investigeting our find,we have now found a cast iron pipe directly in line with the man hole same as the Blue water but the pipe comes out of the brick and then desends vertically!!!!! The only way we are going to find out is for this to be dug out the answer lies in this one as there is no water in it trying to get the photos to yourself got some good ones.
Hi Stephanie/David,
I certainly liked the charcoal kiln idea at one time but having the arched doorway five metres down in bog-land does not seem very practical.
I am sure the main clue in the Blue Pool is the brick arch – does it travel one metre or a thousand metres ? – the latter would have to be a ventilation shaft and tunnel. Once I get the weed cleared from inside the arch, I hope to get a camera down and take a look along the arch – hopefully the whole length will not be choked with weed. I would expect it to slope downwards at a fairly steep angle if it was a ventilation tunnel.
I am really interested in how your Carbrook project goes so please keep me informed. I don’t think I have your email yet. I met a local guy, James, yesterday when I responded to your find. He says his dad has a print of a painting of Carbrook House. James was adamant (and his dad insists) that the nearby building was a Coach House and never to be called Stables – be warned! James seemed to think the land was currently owned by the people who used to have Jones Sawmill.
I remember the pool from around the same time as Heather …. and we spent most of the summer up at the pool! What I always remember was the vivid blue colour … but there was always a curiosity to the place, there were always planks lying around if fact we would run a plank directly across the pool to allow us to jump in and out, from what I recall these planks were similar to what you find on scaffolding or a joist in a roof.
The water was always ice cold, something tells me that we tried several times to dive down to exlore the archway but could never get access!
Will think some more and update if anything else comes to mind!
Thanks for that Alastair, I have added your email to the mailing list. Although I don’t actually recall the planks myself, there have been loads of recollections (even before my time in the early 60’s) — maybe around six planks. I cannot even begin to imagine what they were for. I too remember that whatever time I visited the pool the water was extremely cold. When I tried the temperature last June (after a warm spell) the temperature was the same as the air and remarkably warm — maybe all the algae was heating it up
The arch is still the best clue so far. Whatever reason the pool was built for, why did it need a big arch ? I clean the arch out a wee bit every time I am up there — I am overdue a visit. I have built a Tupperware underwater camera housing but I am very reluctant to test it
Hi Nigel,
Spoke with my dad … he thinks that area was worked on by a colony of Monks … have you heard about this?? different angle!!
Hope you enjoyed your swim Stephen – with all that nicely cleaned brickwork – How was the temperature? It was certainly a warm day. Did your swimming disturb any of the silt on the bottom?
Thanks for that Alastair. This is the first mention I have heard of Monks in the area. I will have to open a new file.
Hi, I think that this is an irrigation well for the plantation all around the site of the Blue Hole. Its basically a way of keeping a steady flow of water to feed the trees where the soil doesn’t hold the water too well. Perhaps similar in some way to this http://www.lboro.ac.uk/well/resources/technical-briefs/42-small-scale-irrigation-design.pdf However the chances of me coming along and solving this mystery are pretty slim so i’m fully prepared to be shot down in flames.
Should we be looking at irrigation well deigns of the 19th century???
No matter what theory anyone comes up with, it must address the question, “What was the purpose of the large arch?” I will try to get a line drawing with sizes up as soon as I get time. Please keep the ideas coming.
Being from Dunipace, I know this feature as The Blue Pool. As this investigation has progressed, I have found there are more people (Plean&Torwood area) who know it as The Blue Water. I am now trying a new hybrid title — The Torwood Blue Water Pool.
Was up walking the dog today and had a wee nosey at another curio id noticed on google maps…. http:// maps.google.co.uk/maps? hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=56.039232,-3.878578&spn=0.001537,0.004801&t=f&z=18&ecpose=56.03906492,-3.87857821,481.48,0,2.92,0
Almost a third of a mile north of the “blue pool” is a near perfectly circular pond with an islan in the middle, the sorta thing you see in ornamental/landscaped gardens or in a park round a country house. No house nearbye and it is sitting in the middle of recently cleard forestry commision ground??? Some link between the two???(either histoically or physically??)
It may have escaped your notice but the beehive structure you posit is reminiscent of Arthur’s O’On, a Roman building located in the same parish (recorded but demolished in 1743). It’s possible that the the local gentry were imitating that structure (of which they would have been doubtless aware) if they built the cap to the pool. Iadmit this is wild speculation but it could be worth a look.
Anyway, here is a url on this if you are interested
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/46950/details/arthur+s+o+on+stenhouse/
I did notice the rustred “drum” whilst walking my dog yesterday. Having walked out to the round pond it is (in my opinion) definately not a natural feature. If you have a look at in on Bing Maps you can see what looks like an embankment round the pond. As for the blue pool, in the woods to the north east there appears to be visible on google earth what potentially could be the ruins of some sort of building???
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=56.03626,-3.87856&spn=0.000769,0.002401&t=h&z=19
In the middle of the map (in a small clearing) you can see what looks to be a wall travelling from north to south then turning 90 degrees and then running off to the east before dissapearing back under cover of the trees.???
Have you given any time to considering the elevation of the pool? and how it is almost on the same 100m contour line that a few field drains can be seen around the hill to the south and east. These drains appear to flow down to a pond just above the Denovan Road and from which a burn flows down to the Carron. Was there a mill on the river at this point that needed as much water as possible especially in times of drought? It could be that this pond was a storage reservoir or holding pond for such a mill, though not having seen it I don’t know that for sure but it was common for mills to harness as much water supply as they could get to ensure supply. I would advance the theory – and it ties in with your water tank – that the pool was a retention tank for a water supply and if not to this possible mill possibly to your earlier thoughts about supply the Larbert hospitals. I think that the clay pipes may draw in water from surrounding land (weak part of the theory admittedly ) but the main tank drew water from a natural spring at the base of it – hence the clarity and absence of stagnation – which what you would be expect it to be like – and that the water went through the tunnel to appear downhill somewhere. Look for a culvert in the vicinty of Pampwellgoat Wood ……. maybe!
All the best Nigel and happy hunting
The Canmore site has 28 records of retting ponds, some of which are in the Falkirk area, with dates that are comparable with the appearance of the Blue Pool construction. One has the following description although admitaly the majority are not round.
“A lint vat or tank used for the preparation of flax at Cleuchhead (NY 098 957), known locally as ‘the lint hole’. An enclosure, something like a well only wider, 12′ across, 42′ in circumference and perhaps 5′ deep, is now filled up and planted over with trees. There is a stone built conduit at the bottom, for the draining off of water after the line has been ‘retted’ or steeped.”
Have you had a look at the pictures of the similar structure over on Hidden Glasgow? I think it is near cumbernauld and might be worth a visit to compare.
Nigel I’ve just had a look at a new mapping resource called HAGGIS (aye) which has a close up zoom (planning dept quality) street level O.S. and the the object is named ‘Tank’ – the area shows to up well enough that even the pylons are shown.
http://sedsh13.sedsh.gov.uk/HAGGIS/
every little helps …………
Hi nigel was up at the blue pool last night and think your guess is the best so far. I have no idea whatsoever what the purpose of the blue pool was or is but I have a friend who works for Scottish Water so I’ll get him to have a good look for a better second opinion. Good luck with your ongoing investigation and if I learn anything I’ll immediately update you cheers.
Iain
Visited the Blue Pool today during a walk round the Broch/Torwood Castle etc.
Well it is a fascinating puzzle isn’t it
Sadly I have no theories to add to the extensive ideas on this site. Well done so far – great stuff
Fantastic footage Nigel. What a great feat.
Undeniably a tunnel. The odds that it was an escape tunnel for the Quarter pit are shortening quickly. Visions of a long gently inclined tunnel is happening for me. Some advice though. Accept some help and advertise your next trip, I’m sure a few of us will turn out to assist and offer up opinion. I’ll be watching the film again and again. Well done you.
Looking at the footage again and you have to wonder what is holding the roof up between the arches – a higher arched roof? Doesn’t make much sense. The walls between the arches are (from what we can see) vertical.
I’ll throw another theory into the ring and say that this may not be a tunnel at all but a roofed over sunken structure. The ‘roof’ might only be a couple of feet below the heather to the north of the shaft/pool.
The film is fascinating.
Your right a diver is not a good idea at all. Some kind of submersible robot camera is probably the best bet …… but how many folk have one of those lying in the shed?
Wouldn’t be a good idea to dig down from the heather either but maybe prodding down with a steel pole? The ground seemed pretty softish when we were up in April.
What about the good old fashioned art of dowsing? Might give you an idea as to how far the tunnel extends from the pool. That is of course if you believe that the practice works – if it did the results would be instant and obvious.
Stop laughing! I’m being serious.
I’m not offering my services by the way. I did see a guy do it once on an episode of Time Team and those bendy metal rods did their job alright (in the right hands of course).
Hello again Nigel,
I’ve got that friday afternoon….mind wandering over to Torwood again feeling. You know how you wonder if its an air shaft related to the coal/fireclay mines – I’ve been doing a bit of ferreting about I found this image – http://www.flickr.com/photos/rikj/5773582312/in/photostream/ look at the colour of the water. Orange – I’ve seen this before with water that comes out of mines. With the water in the pool being so clear and having a low iron content, I wonder if the pool is connected to the mines ?
I’m trolling trough images of coal and fire clay mines on google – I’m seeing lots of drift mines but no vertical cylindrical shafts.The ones I do see have doors, or remains of doors above. There is alot of industrial debris lying about, but the blue pool has very little. You mention other mines in the area. Is there any industrial archeology at the surface in the vicinity of these locations ? I’m thinking if they are related and mine related there would be more ruined buildings and metal work about ?
http://www.topforge.co.uk/Other%20Industries/Deepcar%20Mines.htm
See above site – look at the colour of the water coming out !
Have you thought about contacting the National scottish Mining museum – they must have archives of coal and fire clay mines and they would definately have people who know mines and could tell you what your dealing with ?
I don’t think there was such a thing as as ‘natural draft’. Mining engineering took its place. Mine ventilation was carefully engineered as illustrated by the plan of the 1895 disaster where the air flow across the workings from the downcast and upcast shafts is seen. Closed doors, curtains, bits of wood, anything to control the draught – in the proper direction.
No mention of anything from the direction of Torwood.
Hi Nigel what a fantastic film This of course enspired David to get the Dowsing rods out!!! He went missing for some time following one of the two tunnels. The known arch as far as electric sub station about 1 mile,second tunnel believed to be 2metres wide straight line to the river carron! Possiable 3 tunnel he has not followed yet, I strongly believe that they are there. This blue pool is bigger than what you think,David still believes that both pools are linked also we need to get a core sample which would help find oringanal depth. Also David reckons that there is two hidden arches much deeper as the direction the tunnles are going drops.
The dowsing rods WORK perfect not sure how but they work!!!!
Hi Niegal again the path that Dave followed takes you straight to the carron resevoir, the 2 new tunnels one goes to Denny the other Larbert area I believe what the blue pool does is it brings the water level down not sure how to word it but you need to start investigating fresh water!!!
Right, now this is me thinking out loud – I’m probably spouting stuff you guys have already thought of or gone through, but maybe my random muttering may spark an idea
Housing for a Beam Engine – these beams are massive and usually the walls to house the beam were a structural support for the MASSIVE beam – these buildings, all over the UK are still standing – why would some one have employed considerable effort to remove all trace of this ? So I think this is doubtful.
I think (and I’m probably wrong) that the lack of colour to the water, suggests that its not iron related, by iron I’m thinking ironstone (siderite rich layers in the carboniferous ?) or coal or fire clay – fireclay is the soil beneath the coal this is often sideritic (iron carbonate) Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here. So I’m being contoverisal here – but I’m thinking its not mine related. However: http://www.flickr.com/photos/peteredin/sets/72157619070376639/with/3589621753/ THis shows two pictures of water from Birkhall mine one with heavily stained water the other not …. But there is also a lack of machinery for ventilation – maybe it predates mechanical ventilation – maybe relying on its height above sea level to act like a chimney and draw the air through the mine
Type vertical air shaft into google images and the only things that look like Torwood are canal air shafts or railway airshafts which do look very similar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Preston_Brook_air_shaft_north.jpg but all stand proud of the ground…..and torwood looks like it has a dressed brick finished top layer at ground level…shout out if you think not. This is a cracker: http://www.myspace.com/phill.d/blog/499903956
Possible indications for a water course design : Manhole – what the heck is the manhole for? Inspection or mechanical on/off switches as the main structure holds something you cant get into – it looks suspicially watery to me The pipes look like water pipes with recesses in them that I wonder is for a grill. The tunnel appears to head off on a heading that seems to contour the hill..BUT your at the 100m contour – can you contour round the M80 to the Loch Colter or North Third reservoir ? Have a look at this website: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Air_shaft_beside_Barden_Road_-_geograph.org.uk_-_513592.jpg could this be an analogue ?
Is the pool a controling (manhole)/ regulating header tank to for a drinking water supply to the rapidly industrialising Denny/Stenhousemuir area ?
Any thoughts?
How to get proof ?
I’ve just re-read your pages – page 1, 6 oct 2009 update.. the land used to be owned by the Carron Iron works….various places used it as a water supply…and the “spring” was there pre 1865. I guess the Carron works were going from 1760 onwards. But North Third reservoir was built in the 1930s…presumably loch Coulter was ?
Sounds more and more like a drinking water supply to me but what exactly was its purpose and where did the water come from ?
Just thinking about what I had written …All that pipe work in the pool appears to be contemporaneous with the brick work – it doesnt look like its been added later, the clay pipes look like stuff I dig out of the ground round the house and there is insitu iron pipes. Iron pipes – how long will they last under water?, then there is the guttering etc….has this water supply been upgraded when the reservoirs were built – 1930s ?
I’ve just been looking at the loch Katrine water supply project for comparison….8 ft diameter, 10 inches fall per 1 mile – the tunnel would have to contour the ground surely? How deep does your dowsing kit detect water to?
1930s Header tank – giving a head of 70 metres to the residents in the valley below…is it really big enough for that….guess if it was Carron iron works it might be….
Nigel this really would make a cracking Time Team special – they’d have it solved in no time….go on give them a call
Just found this : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-12717639
A tunnel – I dont think it is what they say it is. If Larbert house was built in 1822, I wonder if the tunnel predates the house. The duck pond was built at the same time as the house.
Is this tunnel connected to the Torwood pool – can some one get some bearings of the tunnel ? Has anybody chatted to this Geoff Bailey keeper of archaeology at Falkirk ? – It stands directly between Torwood pool and the Carron Iron works ….coincidence ?
It also ties in with the hospital taking its water from torwood
Fair enough – benefits of local knowledge.
I was looking at the OS map last night. There isnt a way through to the reservoirs maintaining a constant drop to end up at the 100 m contour at Torwood pool. You have to go down then up again at the motorway. I doubt they would do this.
I think your already ahead of me here Nigel, perhaps there was a change of use, to water supply later in field life. Which again brings you back to the mines – was it a drift mine that was modified (all the brick work put in) ito create a water header tank once the mining was finished ? I guess the Carron Iron work could also have purchased the land to mine the iron and coal first, then required a clean (from a mine!) source of water off the hills rather than the contaminated Carron river water ?
Carron Iron Works took a lease on Torwood in 1760 for the supply of charcoal from the timber. I don’t know if the lease was continuous up until they purchased Torwood around 1914. To the best of my knowledge, Carron Iron Works never extracted minerals from underground in that area. New update coming in an hour or so. Nigel
Look forward to seeing your map David to see where you are exactly. A ploughman from Todhill (1955-70) told me that the large water tank next to Torwood Castle is an emergency supply for industry at Grangemouth. The big pipe cuts across the castle’s ground then south of Todhill before turning in the Larbert Stenhousemuir direction. He was not sure of the exact route it took then. Nigel
Brilliant analysis from Miles – who is a member of http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/bbs/forums/ – I took the liberty of posting a link there a few days ago asking for opinions of their underground enthusiasts. (‘Stirlingshire Mystery’). There is also a team from Edinburgh area one of whom is a diver and might manage to do a dive early next year.
Looking good anyway although as Nigel says ‘Case no closed yet’
Aye thats me Nigel. My Da’ went doon the pit in December 1919.
A Drain the Pool party sounds the bizzo! Count me in.
Thank you Miles !
That is absolutely facinating, do you have some links where we can learn more ? The blocked passage explains the lack of colour to the water, which threw me completely – so the water coming out is just filtered ground water – hence…..a possible change of use ?
Nigel, what about a drain the pool party ! I’ll bring a genny ! It would be great to meet everybody and have a chat about the area and industrial archeology
And Nigel, this website is great – this is what the internet is designed for. Thanks for all the effort you’ve put in.
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=398856
Open university site that gives a breif history of coal – may be of interest
Now that we know what they are called I’m finding spitting images of the pool all over the internet.
Its like a dictionary – you have to know how to spell the word your looking for to find out how to spell it ! http://www.oldminer.co.uk/Mining/Monkwood_Frame.htm
Mystery solved then – Only thing I’d say in defence of the comment >
A local from Torwood village remembers the Game Keeper in 1960 describing how the pool used to have a Beehive roof that had since fallen in and the loose bricks were clearly visible on the bottom.
There are images of air-shafts with metal grid roofs – that could be described as beehive shaped – perhaps the builders put one of these on as an extra safeguard. It would most likely have been a metal grid rather than brick though.
Examples can be seen here > A shaft (image source http://industrialgwent.co.uk/Images/RV%20DarranOgilvieCollieryairshaft-1600.jpg ) from Ogilvie Colliery in Wales And here > A shaft (image source : http://waterwayroutes.co.uk/blog/2007/09/ ) from a canal tunnel
Finally got to visit the area. I was working from memory and was on a tight schedule. It was peeing it down and blowing a gale – feet soaked running up the track to the wood from the south east. Didnt realise there were 3 lots of electrity lines crossing the area. got the middle one – through the dense gorse, through the soaking wet heather, disturbed 6 roe deer, lifted a woodcock and a male kestrel from feet from me – cracking view. But no pool – walked as far as the wall. Noted all the square depressions in the ground – are these subsidence related from the coal mining below ?
Made my way back to the car soaked from the waist down ! Got back to the computer and realised my mistake – I was within 100m of the pool to the north. … Next time…. Noted in the gorge near the road a large waterfall in full spate, with alot of concrete retaining walls around the area – anybody know reason for all the concrete – couldnt get a good view and didnt have time to have a mooch.
Also went to Summerlee industrial Heritage centre. Bit disapointed by the girls description of the “coal mine” But my 3 year old son enjoyed it
Was up there 16 January.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2769661
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2769654
Path from Torwood Castle churned up but firm due to the frost (though a quagmire on return walk due to higher temp – melting frost)
Evidence of digging to N.W. of pool/shaft. At least two sites, furthest being up to 15m away from subject.
Evidence of previously unseen foreign material white in colour (white clay?) within pool/shaft around the part of archway.
Damaged/deformed shaped iron/steel key (approx. 2m + long) noticed lying beside inspection/valve pit to south-east of pool/shaft. Said pit still waterlogged from 600mm below top.
Many cut lengths of birchwood lying around the pool/shaft.
This inspection/valve pit must have something to do with the main subject.
16 Jan was a frosty morning and all puddles were iced over up at Torwood. I ommitted to mention that there was no film of ice on the water of the ‘pool’ which ties in with the air shaft/warmer water theory. In fact the water was over-flowing out of the ‘pool’ from the removed brick at the south-eastern side. Quite a lot of flow actually.
I have to keep mentioning that inspection/valve pit. Its not there for nothing. What could it possibly have had to do with an air shaft?
Photo of an oven of the East Plean Colliery they forgot to demolish.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/142842
Apart from the valve pit/manhole on the edge of the trees I also canny quite get my head round why the pool/shaft entrance/pit/whatever had to be so big? Such a huge hole in the ground just to access a passageway?
This puzzle has not been completely solved in my book.
I went up to see the blue pool with our walking group on Saturday 03 March 2012.
The pool had bluish clear water and sparse weed. I thought I saw two brick arches, one on the north side and the other on the south side. The site intrigued me.
In mind of Guestbook site previous reports of submerged pipes, a nearby manhole, key etc I find it most easy to think of this site as having had some former industrial reservoir use in Victorian times or thereabouts. That is, the pool was purpose built to provide a gravity-driven head of water which with a requirement also for pure water. A pure head of water used for quenching coking ovens, or for hospital use?- both sound good to me(previous suggestions posted at this site). Pure water (with neglible dissolved minerals)would also be valuable for supplying clean water to boilers to provide power for steam engines. I presume that the low pH and low dissolved mineral content would militate against mineral scale forming in the boiler systems. Pure water generating steam power could conceivably have been used for lifting contaminated water for from mines, quarries and/or lifting solids from mines, quarries and/or for mine ventillation.
The previous Guestbook report of concrete staunchions set into the (nearby?) country side also points to a local history of industrial-size incline-based lifting.
My thoughts about a connection to former industrial use do not tie in easily with reported rapid drops in level unrelated to rainfall. I do not know how to think around that problem – unless we are forced to think the almost unthinkable- someone is using the water, perhaps unwittingly.
I have been continuing the work left by Nigel.
I would like to contact whoever now administers this website in order to update them with my recent findings.
Interesting find and thank you for sharing. The Torwood mine works maps may reveal quite a lot and may create more questions than answer!
What are your thoughts on posting the photos on this site? I’d be interested in seeing those. I fear though they may be creating more questions that answers too!
Hi yes we are looking forward to seeing the mine works as Dave wants to prove that his dowsing works! I can email you the photos we took of the basement at Carbrook but the photos I got I am not sure about the copy right law I will ask if I can do this. I think you are right about then mine works giving more questions than answers really looking forward to seeing them. Going back to the dowsing Dave met Nigal a number of times and on one occation Dave showed Nigel Dowsing he has been alround Torwood carron iron works Denny Dunipace Denevon and Plean collinary and the blue pool is a spiders web of tunnels! One of which leeds to Carbrook pool which appears to have two tunnels one leading to the blue pool the other to plean coke kilens (back road at Plean) the by product of coke is coal gas !!!!!!
cheers Steph